tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6297631190403710992.post1788299428102062066..comments2024-03-27T14:34:57.325-04:00Comments on Through a Glass, Darkly: GraceM.K.http://www.blogger.com/profile/09205619221345704689noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6297631190403710992.post-76875775025702454552009-02-20T20:44:00.000-05:002009-02-20T20:44:00.000-05:00Gah. I type so quickly and then leave a gabillion...Gah. I type so quickly and then leave a gabillion typo's. My apologies. I hope the above comment is somewhat decipherable... <BR/>*laughing groan*Alaskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05493872411356521812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6297631190403710992.post-47439153680957726932009-02-20T20:43:00.000-05:002009-02-20T20:43:00.000-05:00I agree that that is one interpretation, but we sh...I agree that that is one interpretation, but we should always measure our interpretations by the light of Christ. If spanking can save a soul from Hell, then Christ did not need to die. The Law should have worked on Israel just fine, if a system of reward and/or punishment could grow Spirit-born fruit and cause righteousness. <BR/><BR/>So...what is the problem, God not using enough punishment on us, or our misinterpration of a proverb? I vote for misinterpreting the proverb! :) <BR/><BR/>I think that the problem is probably in our literal interpretation of that proverb. Which is not to say that we shouldn't take God's breathed word literally---because we should---but in order for us to take it literally, we have to know what it means (ie, we have to rightly interpret it). <BR/><BR/>For example, many of our translations substitute the word "Hell" for the actual word, "grave/sheol" that the author wrote. That, unfortunatly, mistranslation causes us WRONGLY interpret it. When the more likely interpretation is, literally, death. <BR/><BR/>Another thing that causes us to interpret wrongly is the translators choice of "child," when the passage is (as most Jews attest) talking about teenage boys (na'ar is a word that sounds like a lion's growl, and that's what it means---a young lion who is just starting to sprout his mane). This is not a word usually used for young kids but for what we call teenagers.<BR/><BR/>Keeping in mind that this was a culture that beat and/or stoned criminals, etc, and we see that the proverb author is wise advice: "Hey, dad, beat your young-adult son and hopefully it will case him to turn him back from his evil ways, because otherwise the authorities are going to get him and they'll probably STONE him (that, or his wild actions might get him killed naturally)... Eli's adult son's are a case in point. He did not restrain him, and because of that, they died. <BR/><BR/>Again, I do think we need to take the Bible literally. But in order to do that, we have to find the most accurate way of interpreting the Bible. <BR/><BR/>And so if we choose a popular conservative interpretation of that proverb and thus believe that spanking young kids may save their souls from hell, then we are not only NOT taking it literally (since it literally doesn't mean hell, nor does it literally mean young kids, nor does it literally mean an American-style spanking [but an over-the-back beating with a thick rod]), but we are also saying that the death of Christ on the cross isn't quite good enough...<BR/><BR/>We are then saying that His death, *plus* spanking, saves our kids from Hell. And...as I'm sure you can agree...that's really a problem. <BR/><BR/> With love,<BR/>Molly <BR/>(who used to believe that the proverb literally meant hell, young kids, and an American style spanking)...Alaskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05493872411356521812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6297631190403710992.post-19924042100150463162009-02-20T19:55:00.000-05:002009-02-20T19:55:00.000-05:00I would just like to say that the Bible does seem ...I would just like to say that the Bible does seem to indicate that you can spank a child into the fruit of the spirit (or at least out of the fires of hell.<BR/><BR/> Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. Proverbs 23:13 - 14Adam Christiansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13829293818528209342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6297631190403710992.post-87359299287996209022009-02-20T18:42:00.000-05:002009-02-20T18:42:00.000-05:00Thanks for this response. :) Some things here I ...Thanks for this response. :) <BR/><BR/>Some things here I agree with 100% and some I'd like to offer an alternative way of viewing:<BR/><BR/><I>1) I believe in examining the Scriptures for instructions, and examining God's parenting for examples, as much as is possible, first. This includes discipline, tenderness, firmness, correction, punishment, and forgiveness. I need the discernment to know which ones to use in which situations. I think it's important to know in what ways I CAN imitate God's parenting, and in what ways I CANNOT, and should not, because I'm not able to.</I><BR/><BR/>We are to be like Him. We are to emulate Him. We are to bear His image. We are to bear His fruit. <BR/><BR/>His fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness and self-control. <BR/><BR/>This means *we* are responsible as parents FIRST to be bearing those fruits ourselves. <BR/><BR/>This also means that we recognize that it's the Spirit who grows those fruits in us (not us spanking our kids "into" the fruits of the Spirit, etc). :) <BR/><BR/>I would like to challenge you to consider, from a Biblical perspective, what you are saying about how we can't be as loving or kind or forgiving as God is. It seems like you are saying we can punish like He does, but we can't love like He does...? It doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I'm just not hearing you right. <BR/><BR/>I know what we are called to be, as Christ-followers, and I can say that ANY Christ-follower who is bearing the fruits of the Spirit in ample supply WILL be a fantastic parents. <BR/><BR/>GB-parents are all about those things in a parent: love, joy, peace... This is the heart of GB-parenting, right there: growing in His fruits and letting our kids taste them in sweet supply. There is no better way to usher our kids into a love of Christ than that. :) <BR/><BR/><I>2) It's important to consider always whether the traits you're training into your child are traits you want him to have long-term. It's important to realize that your actions toward your child are training habits and expectations in him. Don't train IN, things that you'll later have to train OUT.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. I think most every grace-based parent would agree. GB parenting is primarily PRO-active, not RE-active. <BR/><BR/><BR/><I>3) Your children are sinners, and they are sinners from birth. You should assume that they will display selfish characteristics. You should anticipate that they will disobey. If you consider your child to be intrinsically good, then you've already violated #1.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed, but with a MAJOR caveat. That caveat is that parents need to realize that THEY are sinners, too. This means our urges for a child's obedience aren't going to come from God all the time, but are often going to come from our own flesh's desire to have what we want and have it now. We are going to be liable to put our needs before our kids, to put our feelings before our kids, to put our wants before out kids. <BR/><BR/>Because *we* are sinners in need of a Saviour every bit as much as they are. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>4) Children need to be independent, both for their own sakes and the parents'. My parenting should produce children who can easily, confidently, and lovingly remove themselves from me, and attach themselves to a spouse and to God. This removal is a gradual process.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely, we can agree here, as well. Our goal as GB parents is to raise happy healthy whole adults. No problems there. Many studies show, btw, that kids with secure attachment are able to attach to others easily. Healthy attachment is a good positive thing that leads to later healthy attachments. :) <BR/><BR/><I>5) No parents have to "endure" the "terror years," indulging children when they are young. Children can be obedient and self-governed even when they are in pre-school. They will demonstrate the qualities you expect and require of them. If people move away from you in a restaurant, that's a bad sign.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes and no. <BR/><BR/>We can train our kids, but we also have to be aware that some kids are not like other kids. The mom who's kid has autism, the mom who's got a child with ADD, etc, need our gracious response, not our tsk, tsk, tsk. <BR/><BR/>I have five kids, and the last one was a WILD thing...wait, let me rephrase that, IS a wild thing. :) <BR/><BR/> Thankfully, I know about wild things, because one of his older brothers was the same way, and he is now a model student, top of his class in both grades and behavior, at school. But as a toddler and preschooler, OMGosh, the kid was ALL OVER THE PLACE. I was a Pearl fan then, so he was swatted regularly for it, too. Yet, despite my firm and consistant consequences of punishment, nothing phased him. He was simply very tactile and very motion-based...ie, I was punishing him for his PERSONALITY and for hte fact that his brain hadn't grown into that personality yet. :( <BR/><BR/> My youngest is obviously made of hte same stuff, and I'm handling him in a much different way than I did my oldest son. I wish I had known then what I do now. I wish I had known that it was the way he was wired. I wish that I hadn't worried so much about what all the other folks in the church would think of my parenting. I wish that I had taken a break from trying to get "control" over this kid and instead worked harder on learning to harness that energy that no amount of punitive action on my part could stop. I wish I had known that as his intellect matured, he'd find good things to put his energy to use on.<BR/><BR/> Thankfully, God protected my older son. I began realizing that I was going to hurt him, and really slowed down... And thankfully, I know better with my youngest and can work to be proactive (still takes the same amount of my ever-vigilent energy on my part, just as my older son did, but energy in a different direction now) and find proactive ways to deal with that huge need for hands-on motion. :) <BR/><BR/><I><BR/>6) God has designed the center of the home to be the marriage. Children are most happy and secure when they see their parents loving each other and focused on each other. Children who are the main focus of the home are unhappy and insecure.</I><BR/><BR/>GB-parents are there to love each other and love their kids. It's a false dichotomy to suggest that it has to be either/or. It can and should be both/and. <BR/><BR/><I><BR/>7) Be flexible. There's no perfect, single recipe for all children, for all families, for all situations. People who say so haven't learned differently yet. The only standard is God's word.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes. Yes. And... Yes. <BR/><BR/><I>8) Pray for your children. Be sure to ask forgiveness from your children when you've wronged them. Parents who have never done this need to begin. Allow your children to age and mature, so than as they pass into adulthood you can consider them to be your friends and equals. </I><BR/><BR/>Yes. GB-parents can agree with this 100%. :)Alaskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05493872411356521812noreply@blogger.com